Transcripts
Jump to Episode 5: Den Abreu or Episode 6: Smruthy Nair
Episode 4. Professor Pat Dudgeon on her experience as a pioneer in Indigenous mental health and wellbeing
Anita:
Professor Pat Dudgeon is a Bardi woman from the Kimberley region of Western Australia. She was the first Aboriginal person to qualify as a Psychologist in Australia in 1985, and since then has had a long and distinguished career as a leader in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mental health and wellbeing, Indigenous suicide prevention, decolonising psychology education and practice. Pat is the Director of the University of Western Australia’s Centre of Best Practice in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention and was the head of the Centre for Aboriginal Studies at Curtin University for 17 years. She was a founding Chair of the AUstralian Indigenous Psychologists Association and a founding board member of Gayaa Dhuwi Proud Spirit Australia. Her list of achievements and publications is far too long for me to list but hopefully this gives you a taste of Pat’s role as a pioneer in Indigenous psychology and mental health in Australia. Pat was generous enough to speak with me about how our profession has changed over time, her experiences of creating change, and how we can do better in Indigenous mental health. She spoke to me from Whadjuk Noongar country in Perth, while I was on Wurunjeri woi-worrung country in Melbourne.
One of the things I wonder about is what your experience was like in the 80s, wasn't it, as an Aboriginal person studying psychology.
Pat:
Yeah, it was very challenging. I think, I didn't find out till afterwards that I was actually the first Aboriginal person to finish psychology. And I probably hung in there mainly because I was 23, which to me at the time seemed very old. So I came in as a mature age student. Now I think, oh, that's very young. But at that time, I was very concerned because I'd started lots of things and I'd never completed them. So I was determined to finish it, no matter what, because I didn't want to, you know, stop and incomplete activities in my life.
So I was determined to complete it. It was really hard, just going to university was, um, very challenging. Um, I was lucky though, there was an Aboriginal centre at WAIT, I studied WAIT later that became Curtin and I found that and I just clung to that so I don't know if I would have survived otherwise.
So having a good peer group of other like minded people, whether you're indigenous or, you know a person of, um, from a different culture is really important. Um, it was a very white. Um, uh, still, I think in, no, it's changed. I'm gonna say that psychology has changed. Um, but it was very white, very mainstream.
They never challenged their own hegemony, um, or had a place for, um, people who weren't white middle class. You know, um, so it was racist as well, you know, occasionally get comments from, um, lecturers or other students. Um, so there was, I, I can't imagine they'd get away with making those comments now. So it was very hard.
Towards the end of my program, I started making friends with my non Indigenous, um, colleagues. And, um, that was fun. fabulous. So I wish I had, um, uh, ventured out earlier, if you like. So that's my advice to others, you know, despite sometimes the challenges still continue to reach out because, you know, those people I've known all my life and still remain friends with.
So that's an important part of your university experience. But the content was very, um, We did have social psychology, which challenged, um, a different sort of thinking. Uh, it was more challenging at psychology itself rather than anything else. I did anthropology as my minor though, and that, I loved anthropology.
I got the best. grades in anthrop because, it really talked about culture and introduced different ways of seeing the world of, of valuing what was valued, of knowing the world, et cetera, et cetera. So it was anthropology, I think, that had a big influence on me. But it was, it's quite different now.
I can remember the early debates, so we were challenging psychology from the beginning, and I was lucky to have a like minded group around me of Indigenous and non Indigenous people, but, there was, I could not see a space for an Indigenous psychology, and when we did bring it up, you know, a lot of the white male scholars and figures in the area would, quickly cut us down and say, oh, well, if you're going to have an Indigenous psychology, why don't you have an Italian psychology or a Vietnamese psychology? And we'd say, yes, why not? Yeah. So yeah, that it was, um, it was very narrow minded is all I can say. Very narrow minded.
Anita:
I'm wondering about this sense that from your undergrad days you were really fighting to include Aboriginal knowledge and Aboriginal ways of doing things and one of the things I'm wondering because you've made such an impact on psychology in Australia is what kind of advice you give to people around creating change because it can feel sometimes like those systems are so rigid.
Pat:
First of all, find people who are, um, like minded spirits. So find the, the other radicals, the other, um, thinkers, critical thinkers. And, um, and, and develop friendships and, and relationships with them. Because, you know, we, we, you're not alone.
If you think like that, you are definitely not alone. I've been privileged, I guess. to witness a movement that's happened from, um, the early days where, you know, um, Aboriginality or culture was seen as, oh, abnormal or, you know, oh, we've got to tip our hat at that topic. And then we move on to the real science.
But to where now it's quite the, the change has been considerable. I support a project called the, um, Australian indigenous psychology education project, and that's led by an Indigenous clinical psychologist, and we've had over 80 percent of schools of psychology sign up and be a part of that project.
Anita:
That's amazing.
Pat:
Oh, it's fabulous. They've got a website of great readings. They've got, you know, they have, monthly meetings where they discuss how to put Indigenous studies into the psych curriculum, how to, um, increase the number of indigenous students in psychology. And there's been lots of resources coming out and, you know, we didn't judge, that was our, our rule is that once we established the community of practice, that sometimes course coordinators, you know, they're fighting against their systems. And so we're not about to judge them if they can't put, um, you know, a huge amount of cultural, difference into their program, but we would support them.
So that's really been a big, great success, and quite influential. Our steering committee that, oversees the project and advises it are made up of the regulators like APRA, PsyBA or the accreditation body. So the moments come. We actually ran that project in 2013. And the response was very limited, and then it came to its end, and we decided to revive it a couple of years ago.
And I envisaged that there'd be a select group of us who would meet at conferences, write papers to challenge the power, etc, etc. But the response was amazing. You know, everyone was so keen. And so, um, I had to have a big ponder about that. And I thought, what's happened in our discipline? It's changed so phenomenally.
And, what it is, I think, is that society's changed and psychologists are a part of society. So I think what we've seen happening is a willingness to critically think and to look at, um, social justice in our society. So that's been an important change, I think that's filtered through the whole discipline.
So where it sits now, I'm very pleased and proud. We're not alone. There's a movement happening globally. So, in, the American Psychological Association, they've got an Indigenous psychology task force. So across the globe, a movement’s happening. And it's not just ensuring that Indigenous people have a place at the table. It's about what are our models that can benefit society as well. Not just our own people, although that's our first priority, obviously. But what strengths and different models we bring can benefit all of us. So I think that's an important change that's happened.
But for people who are struggling and feel like they're the odd person out and it doesn't fit, my advice is to grit your teeth and go through it to get that qualification, because you do need that and that gives you power then when you do challenge and speak and ensure that, you know, you think, you write papers, you have conversations, you go to the right conferences where, there are similar minded people.
Anita:
So you've talked a lot about connections with other people, like minded people, and there's also a timing piece there, and I guess that speaks to the importance of persistence and longevity, you know, like maybe you had the project, maybe the timing isn't quite right, doesn't necessarily mean that the project's the wrong project, but maybe it's not quite the right moment, and you need to be able to kind of come back to it at a time when there's an opening.
Pat:
Yes, absolutely. And that the IPAT project is a stunning example of that. When we first undertook it, yeah, it still was successful. It started, I think it influenced the accreditation competencies. And so it was very important, but it was limited. Maybe we didn't have the time to give it, but really, I don't think the wall was ready for it. Now it's a different, there's a different feel out there. It's quite different.
Anita:
When you're talking about, joining together with people, one of the things that I'm wondering about is, you know, it's important for people to kind of stick together and have solidarity, um, but also not dilute concepts. And I'm wondering a little bit about your thoughts about this concept of decolonizing psychology, which is a term that I'm just starting to get my head around, and what your thoughts are around what that term means in terms of whether decolonizing psychology is essentially for you about indigenizing psychology and bringing Indigenous culture into the front and center, or to what extent it's sort of about what all cultures and kind of saying, well, let's not just prioritize, um, you know, European white ways of thinking. Let's think about all different ways of thinking. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Pat:
Look, absolutely. First of all, I belong to quite a good group, an extensive group of Australian Indigenous psychologists. And I think our, my job, you know, I see my role as encouraging different forms of thinking.
So, you know, some of the models that they propose or written about and developed, you know, mightn’t be my cup of tea and that's okay. But I will still encourage and support them to write their papers, to get out and share, um, their knowledge on and their models on how they see the world. So even within the group, there is diversity, and I think the saddest thing that you could do would be to try and have everyone go your way and no other way.
So we need to encourage free thinking and the development of different models and different angles on knowledges. So that's the first thing. That's very important. The second issue is about decolonizing psychology has never only been about Indigenous Australian psychology. It's about everything. So every group of non white middle class people. So, I think in decolonizing psychology, it is for everyone, and particularly those who've been excluded. And that includes, you know, mainstream society itself, don't know how psychology fits them very well. And I'd say not entirely or precisely so.
So it is about a movement or an attitude that, I don't know. That are an approach - an attitude is too flimsy, let's call it an approach - that involves all of us. But mainly obviously when I do my work, I'm focused on Indigenous Australian knowledges. But, um, some of my peers and, and good friends are from New Zealand, they're from Canada. Um, they're from the US of A. And we've been connecting up much more now. So that I think that it's about Indigenous people across the world and people of colour who have been excluded, but also probably some elements of mainstream as well. So that decolonising psychology to me is all of us challenging those old mainstream ways of working.
And, also developing local knowledges and local valuing and recognizing local knowledges, but also probably naming up the past and how it's excluded and oppressed us, and then developing alternatives. So I'm ensuring that we work in ways that nurture Indigenous knowledges and other knowledges.
Have I answered that question in a roundabout way?
Anita:
Yes, you really have. No, not, I don't think that was roundabout at all. I think it sounds like to you, it's an inclusive concept. It's about, you know, including everyone in having a psychology that includes everyone.
One of the things that I was thinking about was about this idea of self-determination. I think sometimes when I've been talking to people about, uh, mental health care and thinking about service design, I've noticed, and I think also around the conversation around the voice, uh, which is about 18 months ago now, I found there wasn't a really good understanding of self-determination and why that was so important, and so central. I wonder if you might be able to talk a little bit about that.
Pat:
Look, yeah. To me, self-determination happen can happen at a number of different levels. I think, you know, there's personal self-determination where one feels empowered and supported in making decisions about your own life and what you do in it. But there's all different levels and particularly, um, we're in a colonial situation.
So there's been a period of time of colonization, of oppressive history and legislation against. To Aboriginal people. So in a sense it's undoing that, trying to reverse that. So I don't think self-determination for indigenous people or any minority group can be discussed without acknowledging and recognizing oppression or, or a history of oppression that's led to where we are now.
And so self-determination is, is very much at a policy level as well. And it's about policies and frameworks that, society makes that can include and empower Indigenous people. And just recently, before Christmas, they launched the national Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention strategy.
So for us in working in the mental health area, that's important. And I think last week they launched the Gaya Dhuwi Proud Spirit implementation plan, which is about taking the best of both worlds in mental, mental health and working towards empowering Aboriginal Torres Strait is people, um, self-determination is about having Aboriginal people determine what, their vision, their, their aspirations, and what needs to happen to change things.
To empower Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people overall. And to have representation too. To have presence. So you'll see with a lot of the Indigenous strategies and frameworks. It is about often the, usually there'll be a statement about recognizing cultural difference.
And it's about having Indigenous governance, so Indigenous people in charge of their own affairs from all different levels. And even though we're Indigenous, we might be an Indigenous, body. There's a certain area we can be, you know, active in. But when it comes to local decision making, for instance, local Aboriginal people need to in charge of that.
So even for us, nationally we might have representation and, and do the best we can for our people, but we, we also, advocate local, um, decision making and that's self-determination. So it's, it's at a number of different levels, including a personal level as well. And can be tied up in recognizing a history of colonization and then to ensure that there's mechanisms put in place. So Aboriginal people's cultural differences, but the rights to have a say over their own affairs is part of the structure
Anita:
When you're talking about colonization, I guess. Partly this whole focus on self-determination. It's about how so much control has been taken away from people for such a long time.
Pat:
The change is not onerous. I know that, you know, I've, I work obviously in research too, and I know that there's some big research grants or projects that I know about that very much. The elders are at the center of it and, you know, when I was a young student, the, you know, you were lucky to be able to include Aboriginal people if you are researching about Aboriginal issues, but to have elders very much of a part of it.
Part of your research and advising you was not something that was done previously. Now that's, it's not uncommon. And I think that people take that responsibility. You know, elders who probably never worked in a university. Now they take that responsibility, they understand what it's all about.
And they've been an important, valuable part of those projects that do have elders, you know, overseeing it. know that I watched that change happen and they're, I know one of the projects I was involved in. It was, you know, very much about elders being in charge and they stepped up to the plate and took responsibility beautifully, you know, they worked together.
There was a great fairness and, and sense of responsibility. The project manager made sure that they were recompensed and acknowledged for their expertise. Um. But I think it's the way you treat people. It's human nature. If you treat them, like, if you treat them as if they are fully functioning, responsible human beings, they will react accordingly.
But if you treat people like they're idiots and, and you know they're gonna be, there's gonna be difficulty and problems, which doesn't say there's no magical answers, neither, course there's problems with whatever you do. But if the vision is, if you've got a deep belief in people, and, the vision that you are working towards, it will happen.
Anita:
I don't work in research, so I wasn't aware of such a big change. That sounds so exciting and that sounds so thoughtfully done. It must be quite, uh, it must feel quite healing at times for people to have the process done, really in a way that's thoughtful and culturally appropriate.
Pat:
Yes. And that's becoming common, well in the projects that I'm involved in. But I know that Aboriginal organizations, they have a strong, a couple that I know of have very strong elders groups who meet, who discuss, who are part of the decision making of that service, and very much involved in it. So they're not just, you know, you don't just ship 'em in for an advisory committee meeting and, you know, pick their brains and then send them off.
They're very much part of the operations of that particular organization Wungening it's called.
Anita:
We were gonna talk a bit about the Working Together book that you've been really essentially involved in. I think the first edition was that in 2009 that came out?
Pat:
2010 was the first edition of the Working Together book. We actually had done a book prior to that that we'd published at UWA and it was called Working with Indigenous Australians.
And it was a brilliant book, but I think we didn't promote it very well and. And it was quite costly for the time because we were trying to recover the monies for it. But we didn't promote it as much as we could. Later on, the Working Together book came about and we basically, we tried different things, but we end up modeling it on the Working with Indigenous Australians.
So it actually had its history back there. But the, a bit, the same sort of format and whatnot, but that was very good. The format, you know, our insisting of having indigenous authorship, and leadership throughout the whole project was very important.
So it was about cultural competence or responsiveness. But, you know, even that history, we had two histories in the book. I think one was mental health area, and then one was psychology because of my background, but even able to present that I think are important. People don't, understand the history of what's happened in Australia, let alone what's happened in particular, you know, topic areas like mental health.
So I think presenting histories was very important. Now it's, it'd be strange if people didn't know the history, but back in 2010, 2014, they did not know those histories.
Anita:
And it's strange how controversial it might have been too.
Pat:
It was. I know that we had conversations with the first edition. The government was worried about us saying colonization and invasion and um, and they did a lot of, I don't know, cogitation over it. And they said, well, this is the author's opinion, so, um, we have to give way to that. But you know, nowadays they wouldn't have even had given it a second thought, but they were worried to use those term. But also that we wanted, um, at that time, um, and always we wanted, um, indigenous authors and I've, I've been going through my old, my little study there. Um, trying to throw out books, which was, is very difficult. Um, but some of the old texts that I've been looking at, you know, it's all about Aboriginal people, but not one aboriginal writer, not one.
And that was how it was until, you know, um, the eighties or so. Um, so Aboriginal people weren't present to tell their own realities. And I think what I'm seeing now is very much a growing of indigenous knowledges led by indigenous people.
So, um, it's been a big change.
Anita:
Yeah, it's very exciting and it's easy to take it for granted and forget that it was so revolutionary at the time
Pat:
We were particularly proud that, of the high number of indigenous authors in the book, um, you know, the first edition pretty well got snapped up within a couple of months. Yeah. So there were 50,000 copies published and within two to five months they, um, were all taken.
Anita:
Wow.
Pat:
Now I think we've got, with the second edition, another 50,000 were printed and we did some changes, you know, updated what was there. And plus we, that was the first time we put a chapter on social emotional being up. And now that's become a, a very, you know, it's very common model that's used. You know, we've got policies about it. So we have been talking amongst ourselves, what, you know, do we do a third edition? My feeling is, probably not. I think that what has happened now is that the area has been opened up, which is fabulous, and now people are starting to research and there's collaborative teams on different topical areas. So I think that the time for a big general text may not be necessary now. However, we are thinking of maybe looking at establishing a website with the Working Together text, but taking different sections and putting all the updated literature and our thoughts on it, all the different chapters. So we'll probably have to get a research assistant to do that. But that's, but we might go for an online type of offering.
Anita:
Well, how amazing that the areas developed that much, that it has that thing that was so perfect then, which is one manual just isn't enough to capture what's going on now.
Pat:
Yeah. It only serves as a good overview, but we're seeing lots of new information coming up now. It's very good.
Anita:
And I'll mention that the second edition of Working Together is Free Online. I'll put link in the show notes as well.
I was reading, about some of the key ideas in indigenous psychology, and some of it's about thinking about, upstream determinants of mental health, isn’t that right about thinking about culture and thinking about social, you know, in the relational worlds of people to prevent or reduce mental health difficulties, which would indicate a focus away from traditional mental health services. I'm also wondering for people who maybe are in more traditional services, and it sounds like an important thing is to understand history and in the information like the Working Together book, you do go through, the impact of history and colonization. What do you think is something else that you might, you would want to say to people?
Pat:
Well, first of all, um, go out there and learn the history. There's some good websites you can access, so it's not like there's no information. Certainly our websites have got good information in it. Find out about, learn the history of Indigenous people in general. A lot of people wouldn't have a clue. They're absolutely clueless. So learn about that. Learn a little bit. Start thinking about what cultural difference there is and how that's gonna manifest in if you're working with Aboriginal people, which you yourself would've done Anita, you know? And I do it, you know, if I go to a different culture and, um, I try and learn as much as I can about them. So you're not going in totally blank slate, andyour perception, you know, is then more inclusive. So I'd be learning a lot more immediately. Once you go, it depends on if you're dealing with a client or whether you are starting at an organization that's seeing Aboriginal clients. I'd actually shop around, find out which cultural responsiveness programs are available and ensure that I enrol in them. That's become a great new area for Aboriginal people to occupy. And even a basic one, like we recently sent some of our new admin staff to, I think it was a three hour session. They loved it. It was fabulous. But I said it's just the start. They need to do more. I, if you, depending on, you know, what position you are occupied, or, or where you are, try and get an Aboriginal mentor. That's another thing we've been speaking about, in our own, even though there's myself, Helen, and a number of Aboriginal staff, um, we were thinking of mentoring on this non-indigenous staff actually asked for indigenous mentors. So we're still throwing those ideas around, but it might be that, you know, someone meets with that particular staff member once a fortnight and they have a cup of coffee for a hour or two together and they can, the staff member then can discuss things. But see if you can get a formal mentor. But if there's an Aboriginal person on staff, you know. Or talk to them and say, you know, can I come and consult with you and ask you? I'd really appreciate it. So reach out to them. Does that answer it sort?
Anita:
Yeah. Great ideas. Some of the things that go through my head when you're saying that is one is how do we look after, um, indigenous staff and organisations so that they're not necessarily feeling burdened with, um, having these demands from so many people. I guess that's one thought I. And another thought, I guess was around this concept of two-way learning, kind of how can we connect with maybe even other organizations? Um, and maybe there's, you know, one organization might have some specialist expertise around mental health and another one maybe around cultural learning and, and for people to be on equal footing. Yeah. So there are two thoughts.
Pat:
I think they're good thoughts I think, yeah, cultural load is an issue for Aboriginal professionals, and a lot is asked of them, and just be open, have those discussions. Just so you know, I understand that you guys are in on, in demand all the time. And you know, even if you're doing the same job, say you're doing a counseling job, um, it's gonna be different for the Aboriginal people because they're a part of the community. So they can't switch off at five o'clock. They have, they have their own special strategies, but, um, maybe you could help with that.
Anita:
Maybe it's just something to just be mindful of, as you say, that people often, I would think really want to have those conversations. But maybe, yeah, also being open with that kind of knowledge that that's a lot for people to carry. I wonder, could I ask you one last question? It might be short. Uh, well, it can be as short or long as you want. I'm wondering, you know, you've been doing this work for such a long time and you've seen all of this injustice and you've made attempts to change it. Sometimes it's been incredibly successful and sometimes it hasn't. I'm wondering what sustains you? What, what keeps you going and what keeps you inspired and fills your cup?
Pat:
I had some very good role models and mentors and they were community people who are very, what is it? I don't want to say radicals because that's, that's sort of, pigeonholes them. I've had people, um, who've always challenged the system and I think you can't, some people can, you know, quietly challenge it and just continuing work, continuing to do their work. I don't always challenge things. So I think that's another message too. You know, we shouldn't make our own people feel deficient if they're, you know, it's beyond them to challenge or there's different ways to challenge too. So, yeah, I think that's important, but, um, early up I had good supporters and role models, and that just seemed, you know, it's, a commitment to self determination and social justice, I suppose, so that's what's motivated me, I think that's my role in the area is to, be the challenger and, shepherd along change that's good for all of us.
Anita:
Well, thank you for being such an inspiration in the discipline.
Pat:
My pleasure.
Anita:
I'm sure you’re a mentor and a role model for many, many people.
Pat:
Thank you, my dear.
Episode 5. Den Abreu on complex identities in the workforce and safety in the profession
Anita:
In today’s episode, you’ll be hearing my conversation with Den Abreu, the CEO and Principal Psychologist of Haven Psychology. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
Before we get to Den though, I want to introduce myself more fully. In conversations about diversity it’s so important to position ourselves, to be transparent about who we are as it affects how we see the world. I haven’t fully done this in this podcast in my hurry to focus on our amazing guests. So I’ll let you know a few things about me. My name is Anita Gupta, I’m a clinical psychologist and have been registered for 19 years. My parents are North Indian Hindus who migrated from India to Australia via Canada many years before I was born. I grew up in a number of places but mostly in Townsville, the lands of the Bindal and Wulgurukaba people. As an adult I have lived and worked in Brisbane, Darwin and Melbourne, Naarm, which is now home. I’m a cis, hetero, middle class, typically abled woman of colour and a mother. I work in private practice in Melbourne, and have previously worked with people from refugee backgrounds, Indigenous people, children and young people in the care system, neurodivergent and gender diverse children, and really a whole range of adults, teenagers and children suffering from mental ill health. I feel lucky to do this work, I love learning and being challenged, and as you can probably tell, I love conversations with other practitioners that help us to be better at working with people different to ourselves. It’s important to note that the context of my conversation with Den, which came a few months after the Queensland government made the disappointing decision to suspend access to gender affirming care for teenagers, while announcing a review of gender affirming care. This has had massive ramifications for trans people in Queensland and around the country. We touch on this decision in today’s episode, and there is more to come in future episodes.
So today I have the pleasure of speaking with Den Abreu. Den is the CEO and Principal psychologist of Haven Psychology, which has offices in Brisbane and Melbourne. And can you tell us a little bit about Haven Psychology?
Den:
Sure. So, Haven started in 2019, initially in Meanjin which is Brisbane. And it's meant to be a space where our most complex and vulnerable clients can actually come and receive some support. We do see a lot of marginalized people, and we work in that more complex end of mental health. So those with complex trauma dissociative disorders, and just complex lives in general. And as we progressed and as people began to hear about us, we found that we were working more and more with the various intersectionalities, um, that make up humankind. So, people who belong to the LGBTIQIASB+ communities, those who are neurodivergent, and particularly I think because there is also the background that many of us have, with postgraduate qualifications in psychosexual therapy as well. So having a really good understanding of a few domains and a few important areas of people's lives and being able to tweak them, with the various aspects of humanity.
Anita:
I imagine a lot of people must be so thrilled to find your clinic.
Den:
I hope so. We are an employer employee model. So that, that's also nice, I think for our staff, to have that ability to not have to worry about, you know, the things that come alongside of a contract model, but being able to really be nurtured as psychologists in early careers as well. And that actually translates to, to clients. So, we work on a servant leadership style here at Haven, which actually means for me the priority is looking after our team members and their responsibility is actually looking after the clients, which works really, really beautifully.
Anita:
I'd like to come back to talking some more about Haven and the experiences of people there, but I'm wondering first a bit about what your experience has been like just to go back in time.
About your experiences of studying psychology. If you had any thoughts about what drew you to studying psychology and what it's like, what it was like for you being the person who you are studying psychology?
Den:
Yeah. Gosh, going back in time. Yeah, it's a big question, but also going back in time as an ADHDer where time blindness is a real thing. I loved studying psychology. And I was a mature age student doing psychology in the undergrad days. And that was at Curtin in WA and I did a major in psychology with a minor in sexology. And for me, going into psychology was not really about wanting to help people as such, but more to understand people, why they do the things they do.
I think all mental health, clinicians across the different disciplines of mental health we're all in mental health for a reason. And I do come from a very complex intergenerational trauma space. I do have my own experiences of complex trauma and dissociation as well. And so that's probably what led me more than anything else to go into this space. Why do people knowingly hurt other people? Why do people not mean to intend on hurting others? How do we repair that, why do we repair that? And navigating it as a mature age student. So I was in my thirties and it was far more meaningful for me than I think if I'd studied it straight from school. I had very young children at the time. My partner, my husband, was doing FIFO work. And I think coming to a space of who am I, now that I'm parenting and not wanting that intergenerational trauma to continue. And that's what led me to, to going into psychology.
Anita:
Such a powerful motivation, isn't it, when you have kids and you want something better for them?
Den:
Yeah.
Anita:
And so it sounds like, you know, you, you had your hands full when you were studying psychology, and the subject matter was pretty interesting for you, so it sounds like the experience of studying was pretty positive for you.
What about when you became a psychologist? And I, I know that we've exchanged a few emails and kind of chatted a bit before this, and you've mentioned something about. You know, just the experience of being a professional psychologist in a, a white centric world, and how maybe your identity was interpreted. Do you wanna talk about that at all?
Den:
Yeah, and I can actually circle it back to, to studying psychology. So I completed my master's at UQ. So we moved from Perth, where I did my undergrad, and then we moved to Queensland where. I started my masters. But in both programs, not a single lecturer was someone who was obviously not Caucasian. We were very fortunate in having been taught, some guest lectures by Dr. Tracy Westerman, who is an Aboriginal lecturer and psychologist and is doing amazing things with, with the work that they're currently doing, building an army of the next generation of Aboriginal psychologists. But that's one experience out of, you know, four years of undergrad and then an additional two years in the master's program. One of my tutors was actually a Torres Strait Islander . But those instances are so rare, you know? And had I been on a different timeline or if I had been doing a different master's, so if I had done, you know, org psych or something instead, I wouldn’t have had access to, to that tutor, to Daryl . But even amongst students, it's a very white centric, very privileged position to be in, to, to actually study psychology. And that actually does show up in the types of students who are studying. We've got students who have predominantly gone to private schools or to the higher tiered public school systems. And we are taught in a very white centric model. We are taught old school, you know, Freudian, white old man theories and principles, and it continues. And so, looking at the lecturers, they may not all be Australian. They may have some, you know, cultural diversity, but certainly not people of color, cultural diversity. There may be white South Africans, say for instance, or you know, American and Canadians. And it does play a role because we are encouraged to bring in cultural humility. We're encouraged to consider, you know, cultural diversity when we are doing our assignments, et cetera, and yet no one teaches you on how to do that because they've not experienced what it's like to, you know, hear the click of a car door being locked as, as you are going past someone, you know, walking across the street so that they're avoiding you. When you don't have those experiences of the small microaggressions and you're teaching about the larger, very obvious bullying, harassment, discrimination bigotry, you don't actually allow for the death of a thousand paper cuts, so to speak. And there are positive stereotypes, I'll use my, my heritage. So I have a Portuguese grandfather who married a Burmese grandmother, an Italian grandfather who married an English grandmother. And, so there is quite a diverse ethnic background for me. The difficulty, I think, with navigating a space, especially right now where in psychology we've got these new professional competencies that says, working with diverse groups, working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples using trauma informed frameworks, being culturally sensitive, and you've got a year to meet those requirements. And it's like, well, how? When we were never taught the theory to begin with from undergrad, so you almost have to go back to basics and and it can be very difficult and very challenging for some people.
Anita:
Yeah, it's a, it's a big change, I think, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on how that's affected who you are as a psychologist being within that kind of environment?
Den:
Yes. So. Sometimes in the past I have been accused of playing the race card, and it's a really interesting one. This is something I've spoken to other colleagues about, who are also people of color and in mental health as psychologists or counselors or psychotherapists. Having to be quiet, having to be discreet, not raising your voice so you avoid, you know, stereotypes and things like that. So when there is something that is big enough to actually go, no, we've got an issue here. In my experience is you need to frame it, that I need to frame it in a way that is palatable for the other person to, to experience and hold and understand. And so therefore, I almost have to downplay it. When it's just such an important topic that it needs to be shouted about, you know, you don't have to shout at the person, but the topic of bigotry, the topic of, you know, humiliating another person. These are harmful things and if we are meant to be modeling to our clients and if we are meant to be understanding clients more than just a diagnosis or, you know, an experience or a set of experiences that they have had. If we are to understand how they have gotten to be, we need to understand the barriers and challenges from a deeper level, then, oh, that sucks to be you. You know? Or, oh, that must have been hard. So if I, if I say to a colleague when you said X, Y, and Z, my, my reaction was this, and I wonder if this is the kind of conversation we're having with clients because I can hold so much more as a health professional and understand where you're coming from. But when our clients, or when the people in front of us don't have that ability and, and shouldn't have that ability when they're in the rooms with us, what is that like for them? So then, you know, oh no, you're just being sensitive. Den, are you playing the race card here? And it's like, no, because I've sat on this for three days. As I've tried to dumb this down as I've tried to whitewash this for you in a palatable way, it is no longer the race card. This is a concern that I have that is, you know, that requires either a repair in in our relationship, or I'm highlighting this to you so that it doesn't actually come in anymore in therapy sessions or something like that.
Anita:
I think this is so profound what you're talking about. And I just wanna bring out maybe a few different threads. Because I think there's so many parts of, of what you're saying. I guess one is maybe a sense of alienation that can come up when you are in a profession, when you're a person of color or part of another marginalised group, and you're trying to talk about the impact of those aspects of identity because you've experienced them yourself and you understand that that's what happens, and you understand how profound it is. That sometimes that can mean that you are alienated, because other people might not wanna hear it or they might not like the way that you say it because there's some kind of, sometimes an expectation that it will be expressed in a way that maybe it isn't emotional, which I'm not sure quite how you do when you're speaking from your own experience. And the mental effort of trying to figure out a way of communicating what it's like to be part of that group, to someone in the majority group in a way that can be heard, and then potentially having the experience of being dismissed even after doing all of that, thinking like that. All of it, it takes a toll.
Den:
It does. And I think when you are doing it from, it's almost like you have to have a Part A statement. So you give the context, this is about me wanting to support you and your clients. Say for instance, so as a board approved supervisor, I will always introduce, especially now with the new competencies that we have to meet, what does this look like for diverse groups?
So, in terms of, of, diversity, not only am I a person of color. In every protected characteristics, I can tick a box except for being Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander. I am queer. I have ADHD, so I'm neurodivergent. And so when we, when we are, when I'm talking around cultural diversity, I've always used the term, cultural diversity beyond ethnicity. Because I think most people will think about, you know, race as the first port of call, race and ethnicity when we are talking about culture, but then they might include things like, you know, religion or socioeconomics is different types of culture, but not necessarily some of the other forms of culture.
So we do add context. So I add context. Here is what I am framing and then here is the issue. But when, when, when we think about. How do we frame it in a way that it's palatable for somebody to hear it? It is almost that Part A, Park B conversation to have had. And then the Part C, which is, you know, a week later or whenever it might be, moments of non-conflict. Hey, how are you and I now going with that conversation? How are you and I now going after, you know, moving forward?
Anita:
I think there's some really good ideas then about, I haven't really thought about it that way, about how, to be able to have the conversation, uh, safely, you know, constructively. To be able to have, bring in a few different parts of that and think about it as this ongoing checking in about how the conversation is going.
Den:
I was just going to say even through all of that, the onus is still on the person who's marginalised, the emotional labor, the cognitive labor. The sleepless night. So the physical labor from that, you know, the, as you're washing your hair and going, oh, should I say it this way or should I say it that way?
There's a lot of thinking that goes into a conversation that people who you know, and it wouldn't matter if it was like, you know, do I need to disclose a disability at work or do I need to disclose, queerness. How do I ask for an a accommodations at work? The onus is always on the marginalised people, and that's actually not okay.
Anita:
Yeah, and I guess that's that intersectionality perspective, that it's power and privilege, and that belonging to these groups is, a dimension of unprivileged. And then, and you've sort of got to find a way to ask the majority, to, to hear your experience. And they don't have to because they're in the more powerful group. It's a confronting way to think about it.
Den:
Yeah, it is.
Anita:
When we first spoke, I was really struck by. Often, um, if I reach out to another psychologist as a person of color, I guess people can feel safe quickly . But, you know, and I, I was struck by how when we made contact, actually it was really hard. It certainly wasn't something I could take for granted that you could feel safe talking to me. I hope it's okay to say and because I think it was really important for me to experience that actually for you, as a, as a queer person who's also a person of color, various other intersectionalities, who's working - and I think also this is about you working with a group of people who have identities that are so complex. You sort of really needed to know whether I was on your side or not. Because it's not assured that somebody who's in the profession, who's a psychologist, even if they're a person of color, that they get it.
And so, yeah. It makes me think about how exhausting all of that is, and then added to that, there's so few refuges, I guess, for you, in terms of places where you can feel assured of being safe.
Den:
Mm-hmm. So I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable.
Anita:
Not at all. Not at all.
Den:
And, and I think, you know, especially with being gender queer, gender fluid, gender is such a spicy topic right now. And that's here in Queensland. It is, you know, all over Australia with gender affirming care internationally with all of the trans bans, et cetera. Even though the professional competencies speaks to gender identity, gender expression, and gender diversity. There are a lot of psychologists out there who actually don't believe in gender affirming care or don't understand gender affirming care. And, there are a group of people who believe that if you are also, neurodivergent or disabled in some way, that any gender affirming care, and by that, they mean hormone treatment specifically, so puberty blockers, if you are a prepubescent, and hormone treatment if you're not - gender affirming care should only be allocated or considered around the ages of 25 to 30. And that blows my mind because a, not everybody wants hormone treatment. Not everyone can afford hormone treatment. Not everyone experiences gender dysphoria. So there's a lot of assumptions that are being made about gender diverse people, transgender diverse, and non-binary people. And the misinformation that goes on.
And so when I am talking to people, regardless of whether they're a health professional or not. I can't take off my facial features. You are gonna see that I have ethnicity here, that’s not Australian. I used to be in a much larger body, so there was also, you know, a lot of shame and stigma around being in, in larger bodies. And so with a trauma history to boot, being invisible is safe, right? Being in a bigger body, people don't want to look at you. Right. It's easier to be safe there. But also the amount of layers that, okay, you appear to be safe with my ethnic heritage. I can talk to that. Oh, you are making comments about queer people. Uh, okay. So I can't disclose that then. Oh no, not everyone is a little bit autistic. You don't understand neurodivergence then. Okay. So I can't disclose that. Because you're gonna make a lot of incorrect assumptions about who I am because of all the intersectionalities that I do have and you know. When I do speaking gigs, presenting at conferences, it's there. I'm a person of color, I'm an ADHDer, I'm gender queer, da da da. Do that with what you will, because I think if we're not seen, then that next generation of health professionals, the next generation of young people with histories and intersectionalities like mine won't have somebody to be able to go, oh look, there are people like me out there. And I think that's so important, but it's in the disclosure, it's the inviting in versus the coming out of things. Yeah. Just like our clients, we have to earn the right, you know, to hear our client's stories. I'm not sharing everything willy nilly with anyone, you know, have had some bad experiences, so.
Anita:
Yeah, there's that negotiation of visible and invisible parts of your identity there. I wonder if you could talk a bit about the fact that, my understanding is that your clinic, you have a lot of people who are gender queer or people of color or, you know, multiple, you know, neurodivergent or multiple kind of identities. So you’re supporting a team that has these marginalised identities in a world that can be unfriendly to that, to people with those identities, and also then supporting that next layer layer, supporting clients with those identities. I was just thinking a bit about what that's like, especially say in recent times where there has been, there has been these statements made around gender affirming care, particularly in Queensland. What that's like for your clinic because of all those layers.
Den:
Yeah….
Anita:
Is it too big?
Den:
It's a huge one. Look, I work with the most amazing humans. I am so lucky that, you know, people like to come and, and join us at Haven. Like my last few team members, we didn't have ads out. These people were hired because they wanted to work for us and sent a, you know, just a cold call or other psychologists business owners have gone, hey, I've got a clinician for you that would be perfect. And so that's where some of our more recent team members have come from. And because we do work in a very sex positive, gender affirming way, like all of our socials, what you see is what you get really. And me being an ADHDer and Michael who is our director of business operations, is also neurodivergent and neither of us have the time nor the inclination to be micromanaging people. I can't manage my own time, let alone a whole team's worth. So, you know, there's a lot of flexibility in that. And we have different days, different shifts. We work in a very neurodivergent affirming model, which means that, you know, different office spaces, different needs. So where we currently are, we moved into this place, in March of last year. So we're in here one year now and to be able to have individual lights in everyone's room, lamps, being able to pull down, you know, blinds and things like that, that makes it for a much more sensory and individual sensory space to navigate for our team who, you know, are neuro divergent.
When we are talking about queerness, you know, that adds a layer. And the research is very, very clear that, you know, neurodivergence and being a member of the queer community do overlap significantly. And I think that is because when you're a neurodivergent and you're able to think outside of the binary, and the world loves binary, we're good, we're bad, we're fat, we're skinny, we're sad, we're happy, you know. It's in the nuances of content, meh, healthy, you know, and working in the gray is actually very difficult in general for a lot of people, especially health professionals, 'cause we wanna be right. And when we look at the history of being marginalised, you are never right. You have never belonged. You have never been seen fit to be included, let alone have a seat at the table. Have, have you even been invited into the dining room, let alone have a seat at the table. You know, so it's all of those things that Michael and I thought about when we, when we created this, this new space for our team, but then it went beyond that to what do, what do we need for our clients?
So, you know, not having strong smelling rooms. So essential oils aren't necessarily a thing. But we do have smells for those of our clients who dissociate or who are sensory seeking in terms of smells. So little coffee beans or, you know, other things that may go along trying to work for the majority of people, whether they're their team members or our clients. It is what is going to make, from the moment you walk into the door before you even set foot in your session, how do we down regulate our clients? And we have a beautiful tea menu. We have hot chocolates and coffee and all of those things, but you know, so the smell from herbal tea, because clients have had to get a bus or two or the train, they've had to navigate a lot of sensory stuff plus whatever they're coming for. And this would be the same for team members. You know, they've had to navigate driving, getting public transport. So by the time you get to your office, you need to downregulate again before you can see people. Because if you are not regulated, you can't help regulate somebody else. And that's just not about in that moment, it is the history and the understanding of, you know, DSM being marginalized, homosexuality was in DSM-III you know, gender dysphoria is in the, is is in the current DSM but in the ICD, it's actually under sexual health. So it's navigating who you are, where you are. We think about our First Nations people. Once upon a time, they weren't even considered human, they were put in flora and fauna, you know, so knowing the history of being othered is important when you are working to support other people, because if you don't have that understanding, and then you try and get the understanding with the people in front of you, whether they're your team members or whether they're your clients, and even worse if they're your clients, and then you are asking, what does that mean? Or explain, teach me and pay me your session fee while you are teaching me. You know, that's a little on the nose. So being able to adopt a leadership style that encompasses recognising anti-oppression, recognising anti-racism, and building that into a framework that is suitable for staff, that is suitable for clients, this is something we are committed to.
And I say we, this is Michael and I, so Michael is very white, you know, origins of ten pound poms on both sides of his family. So he's had to learn to navigate and see when people are having a go at me because he never used to see it. He never used to hear it. And now, you know, comments like, oh, the Muslims from across the road are stealing our mangoes, you know, or the Indians are saying this, and he's like, well, how do you know they're Indians? Did you look at their passports? How do you know they're Muslims? You know? And actively on Facebook, in family discussions in, you know, everyday conversations, calling people out. And it doesn't need to be in your face. It can be , oh, so how did the introduction of the passport come in? I'm a bit confused, you know? They can be humorous. They can be gentle. They don't have to be in your face.
Anita:
I love the reference to mangoes and it makes me miss the north.
Den:
I love mangoes and, and quite frankly, I think it, it would be more than one group of people who would be stealing them.
Anita:
Yeah, why wouldn't you? So, you know, I think this sense of the thoughtfulness that's needed to employ and sustain a diverse workforce is one thing you're talking about, and that's so important because when you have a diverse workforce, it means that people can come and find someone who gets them. You don't have to have someone with exactly the same identity, of course, but it makes such a difference to people to have a diversity of psychologists or a therapists to choose from. So that's, that's one piece, isn't it? It’s not just educating more people, but also being able to provide employment conditions that can help them to survive. And then there's another piece around helping people to work with different, like people who are different to themselves as well. Of course.
I wonder if you talk a little bit about, your sense of what sustains you in doing all of this?
Den:
Honestly, I think it is the ADHD, because I have a million ideas in my head all the time. And I will so say yes, being the Principal Psychologist, the CEO, Board Approved Supervisor. I have lots and lots of roles, ‘cause I'm still a clinician. I'm still a psychosexual therapist as well. There's so much to do and I love doing it all. Having all the different ideas. So whilst I can have lots of different ideas, I actually need people to implement them because I'm a big goals, big ideas type person, the day-to-day minutia of doing it, not my skillset. And so this is where the team really come alive. We have people whose strengths are in social media. We have people whose strengths are in the writing of, you know, blogs etcetera. We've got people who love creating programs. We've got people who all they wanna do is be the best damn clinician they can be. And no shade to anybody. Like we all need to know where we're at and where we wanna go and move to that.
And being able to have the flexibility is important. And I think that's where I get my…how do I keep going is because there's always something new and you know the ADHD of following the shiny butterfly, I can be my own worst enemy. From following that shiny butterfly. I can absolutely derail some important projects and I have done that. And, and so learning what neurodiversity and leadership can mean, the beauty of it, but also my own personal challenges that I need to sort of keep mindful of.
Anita:
So it's like hard to separate the ADHD from the….well, it's the creativity and the energy that you have in the work is, is not, you can't separate from the ADHD. And then maybe also, I'm hearing a sense of a creativity and energy in the workplace in general. And it sounds like that's kind of comes from diversity or, you know, embracing the fact that people are all bringing different things and that that's constantly opening you up to new ideas or, or new ways of doing things as well.
Den:
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, yes, self care is really important. If I didn't have, family who are really mindful of when I don't see that I'm taking on too much, they’ll have a gentle word in my, my ear, you know? Because I, my babies are now young adults and, and finishing university and just finished university. So wanting a different world for them is important. Having that legacy is important. Surrounding myself by like-minded people, like yourself and some of the other business owners that I hold dear. It's really important to surround yourself with like-minded people, but also people who are going to challenge your thoughts and beliefs because, you know, one day maybe it is actually me holding the race card because I'm just so overwhelmed that all I'm seeing is challenges and you know, I'm just going, it’s because I'm Burmese or it's because I'm, you know, queer And it may not be, it might just be because of being an ass that day. So being able to be held accountable is also important as part of that self-care routine.
Anita:
Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom Den. Is there anything that you feel like we haven't covered that you think it's important for people to know?
Den:
I think for health professionals when you are not understanding someone's intersectionality and how it might play. It's really important to understand your client. So asking the question, what does that mean for you? I'm gonna go do the research about being, you know, gender diverse. I'm gonna go do the research about being, neurodivergent or whatever it might be. But what, what does this mean for you? That is absolutely appropriate. Go back and do the research yourself and then come back together with your client. You know, I've learned this, or I've gone and had supervision with a person of color. I think that is essential if you are working with people even if it's not the same cultural background as your particular clients, but understanding some of those challenges. And it's not only about lived experience, because I think to be able to go, oh, I have lived experience. I can work in this space - is not enough. You need to have theory behind it. You need to have grounding and techniques and approaches behind it, but to understand a lived experience. And having supervision around that, because if you, if you haven't experienced it, getting it secondhand from your client who is already emotionally, vulnerable, may not see some of the things that your supervisor would say, okay, implement this, or, you know, read this stuff.
Everyone's got a part to play. And I think with the professional competencies that are coming out for psychologists, but also just in general with what's happening in the world, we need to understand each other at that deep human level, and a lot of what is happening is actually societally endorsed. And so the challenges that come out for our clients, for ourselves, where the structures, the social structures. So if we've got one of the most powerful men in the world saying it's okay to hate. And even better than hating someone is acting on their hate, that has ripple effects, you know? And it's not a safe world for a lot of people right now. And a health professional, can be an anchor to some of these people and, and, and I think that's a really beautiful thing that we can offer.
Anita:
Absolutely. What a beautiful note on which to end. Thanks so much for your time and thanks for all the wonderful work that you do.
Den:
Thank you for the opportunity.
Episode 6: Smruthy Nair on being a migrant psychologist in Australia.
Anita:
Aileen, I so enjoyed hearing you and Smruthy having a chat about being migrant psychologists in Australia, which is so different to being someone who grew up and trained in Australia.
Aileen:
What do you think was the difference?
Anita:
I think one thing is I don't know that I've ever really heard migrant women talking about their experiences in psychology. So I think just having that felt like a whole new perspective on the profession. And I think also the two of you spoke about ideas about what Australian psychology would be like before coming, and then what the reality is; as well as the differences between psychology and your home countries and psychology here. We're kind of quite insular in Australia in a way, um, where a lot of people have only practiced in Australia. So I think I just found that a really valuable perspective.
Aileen:
Oh, thank you. I'm glad to hear that it was something new, like maybe a perspective that it's not that explored. I think maybe that's what we're missing to talk about the experience of being a migrant psychologist, especially 'cause, interestingly, Smurthy and I, we studied overseas and that was part of the conversation and that construct of studying overseas and working overseas and what happens when you come here to Australia and how that actually affects what you do professionally here and your work with clients. So I did enjoy that and it was so validating when we would click on ideas and say like, “yes! this is what was going on for me!”. And just seeing that represented into someone else's story and experience.
Anita:
Yeah, and Venezuela and India are really different countries, so it's so interesting to hear about the parallels in your thoughts about psychology in Australia.
Aileen:
Exactly, right? Just more like a general idea of migrating as a professional, because it is in different countries, in different continents. And yet we have so many similarities in, in our processes. So I really enjoyed it, that conversation with Smruthy. And in general, I do enjoy the conversations with Smruthy and something that I really admired of her is how, because of her journey as a psychologist from overseas, she's really tried to create different spaces for herself - that ended up spaces for us as well, like The Other Chair. Anita:
Yeah, and I think we wanted to mention and pay tribute to the other chair, which is something that Smruthy and her colleague at Unhypen Psychology, Bimba Chavan, have created and offer for free to the community of BIPoC practitioners.
Aileen:
It has been going on for so many years, and to be honest, participating in the other chair, it's been such a light bulb moment for me every time that I go there and to reflect on my own journey and my own practice as a woman of color. I'm so thankful for The Other Chair. I consider that the content of the other chair. It's amazing. Like I always learn something new, but it's also about the form of the group, the way that the discussions go about the way the nonverbal communication that happens in the group. It's not only that we're supportive, but how it happens that it looks so different from any other peer supervision group that I've attended in Australia. I love that.
Anita:
Yeah. And I, there's sort of invisible skills or skills that you can easily miss, needed to hold that kind of space as well. So thank you so much Smruthy and Bimba for providing this to the community. It means a lot.
Aileen:
Definitely. Thank you.
Anita:
Before we go on, I want to acknowledge a couple of things. One is that Aileen is speaking from Bunurong country while Smruthy is on Larrakia country in Darwin. And I also want to acknowledge that the audio quality in this is not so great. Hopefully it doesn't take away from the valuable conversation, but I just want to acknowledge that we weren't able to get the audio quite as good as we would like. So this one is a little bit of a departure from what I hope is usually quite good audio quality. But we felt that the conversation was so important that we still wanted to publish it. So I hope that you all enjoy this conversation between these wonderful practitioners. I as much as I do.
Smruthy:
My name is Smruthy Nair, I'm a psychologist and I'm a South Indian migrant who came to Australia in 2017. So I've been working here since then. And prior to that I used to work as a psychologist in India. Since coming here, I've worked across complex trauma, youth mental health, family violence, and now I work in education. I used to work in Melbourne, now I live in Darwin in the NT.
Aileen:
I would like you to tell us a little bit of your journey as a professional.
Smruthy:
I worked in India for six, seven years before I moved to Australia, so I did all my training in India, lived my entire life in India, had never been overseas before. I came here and I moved because sector here felt more structured and one of the things that I was really missing as a professional in India was this kind of network of other professionals. So I used to have a lot of interns who I used to train at my organization once they finish their Masters and then, you know, send them out into the world. But supervision was not a given there. You had to really seek it out with someone in the sector. It was not necessarily a part of your professional development or anything like that. I felt also like there's a lot of that kind of that scarcity mindset that is part of the culture that’s very hard to talk about, but that's definitely part of my cultural heritage. There's just, there's a lot of competition in the sector. There isn't a lot of collaboration. So I felt like, okay, I want to change to a different country and, and see what the sector is like. But of course, what they don't tell you before you move to Australia is that if you're from another country, and even if you have qualifications in psychology or are a registered psychologist in your country and you're not from an English speaking country, they made you do the whole process of assessing your qualifications and then telling you haven't done enough study or you don’t know anything about the Australian context. I had been working in Australia for a year and a half at that point, but I still had to do that. And that’s something they do not tell you.
Aileen:
I found very interesting that you're talking about, thinking about Australia and psychology. It felt more structured, but then when you got here it was a completely different experience. And I really feel the same way that the idea of Australia outside of Australia is so different from when you're here. In terms of practice, what do you think is the main difference? These things that no one told you that now you know?
Smruthy:
Yeah, that's such a good question because it really forces me to reflect on what my experience was and while I still stand by the fact that the sector here was much more mature and structured when I moved. I think the practice is also hyper structured. Which is not how I was trained in India. So there's a lot more flexibility in how you want to invite those concepts in your practice and how you relate to clients. We also use different languages. I speak two different languages that I used to use regularly in practice. I still kind of weave in and out of those languages and psychology in English and you know, using the therapeutic language but using different languages with clients to be able to relate to them. So there's a, a lot of more focus, I would say, on that therapeutic relationship building and being culturally responsive or being intersectional within India as well. And I find it really fascinating, being Indian, but we have so many different subcultures in India because it the country is so big, there are lot of different people. So I felt like I had to be intersectional in my practice from day. There was no question about that. But when I came to Australia, we, you know, pride from being a multicultural country, we had so much diversity, we had so many migrants. We have long history of Aboriginal and Torres Strait people here. And there was no intersectionality in my practice that I was trained in here. I think the, the extent of intersectionality was probably LGBTIQ+ inclusion and disability inclusion. Those were the two aspects that people felt quite comfortable talking about. But there wasn't discussion about systemic harms or about racial diversity or about cultural diversity within different races as well, or religious needs that clients bring into practice. So I think felt like this is, this sounds like you know that all of this exists, but you don't want to do it yet. That's what my take was about the practice here and the workplaces I worked in kind of reaffirmed that, that nobody wanted to talk about it. It's just too big, it's too much. It's not our place to talk about it, you know, let somebody else do the work and we'll pick it up when it comes. That was the attitude.
Aileen:
In my head while you're talking, what I can see, it's sort of a room where you go in as a psychologist, but then on at the door you need to leave who you are. You need to leave or you cannot talk about this and all this. It's stays outside of this room, and then you only can come with, this is step by step what you need to do because this is what has research that works, but nothing else. And you cannot talk about this with the client and this things, this is not what we’re thinking about here. Whereas, and I feel the same way in Venezuela, the kind of therapeutic relationship that we have, it's wholesome? We come as with our full identity, with our full selves, into the therapeutic room.
And that's been very tricky when I actually see Venezuelan clients in therapy, because recognizing that this is where we come from and they come differently and that Australian practices are a misservice for my Venezuelan clients and I'm not gonna do that. So things starting from - we hug when we meet someone; like we hug, we kiss on the cheek. If you're female to female, that's what we do. If you don't do that, that's disrespectful. But I wouldn't be able to do that in practice here with other clients or Australian clients so from the get go having supervision around talking to my client about how we are going to greet inside the office instead of outside, just to accommodate that. And we're not even talking about the therapeutic work yet. We haven't even sat down! Has that been your experience?
Smruthy:
Very much so, with Indian clients. You know, I always tell people that with Indian clients you can always expect an invitation for lunch because that's just what we do. Most Indian people, one of the ways that we show that respect and that sense of warmth and hospitality to other people we meet is by inviting them home for a meal. And that's just anybody, you know, you make a new friend on the bus and they'll invite you home for a meal or you go to a new workplace and everyone there will expect that you invite them all home for a meal because now you are friends. You just have to be friends because you work together. There's no argument about that. So with Indian clients… you know, this is definitely frowned upon in Australian practice where you are expected to be this blank slate, you are expected to disclose nothing about yourself and that even though those practices are not really taught anymore, I think supervisors are moving away from that, there are quite a few people out there who still practice that way or and who still hold that. And that will work for them. But Indian clients will often come and say, oh, you know, thank you so much for working with me on this issue. I feel so much better, you have to come home. Or if you don't come home, they'll bring something from home, they’ll cook, they’ll bring something from home. I've got sweets and I've got lunch invites. And I've got opportunities to say hi and hello to family members because even though confidentiality, my Indian clients will often bring their parents or their sibling or their partner. I've got puppies and dogs brought to me because, you know, my clients see them as their kids and they bring them because they wanted me to meet them and I'm very happy to do that. That feels very natural for me. And I do not expect that, or say if I had a client who is not Indian or who's Australian, I don't expect them to share that value. So I don't expect that from them. But with Indian clients, and I’m so brazen about this, with Indian clients I know that's going to happen. That's totally fine. And like we said we accommodate that into our practice.
Aileen:
Yeah.
Smruthy:
And I unfortunately have gotten comments and not, this is not even an Indian client, I've got comments from colleagues about, oh, you must have really poor boundaries with your clients. Because one of my clients was in a really difficult position during COVIDm and they needed a lot of support to get out of that position. It was COVID and they were traveling and they got stuck. And so we had to do some work around that. And one of my colleagues commented when this client finished their final session and left me some flowers, it was a female client as well. But my colleague commented, oh, you must have really poor boundaries with your clients and just walked away.
Aileen:
Wow.
Smruthy:
And I thought, oh, okay. So for our clients, this is such a difficult position because when we have to think of ethics and confidentiality and maintaining privacy for our clients, and all those things we have to think about. We encourage clients to bring their whole selvf to therapy, and then why are we being so critical about when they do bring their whole self to therapy?
Aileen:
Yeah, exactly. And it's all difficult…this reminds me of this term of an in-betweener, right? You are in between your culture and your workplace. And it's actually something that I would like to talk about with you and it's - what do you think clinicians who are people of colour need from their workplace? What do you think we need as clinicians and people of colour in workplaces to really thrive and really bring our strengths? And service our clients the best to the best of our abilities?
Smruthy:
The things that we talk to our clients about. You know, we talk to them about psychological flexibility. We talk to them about not making assumptions. We talk to them about not relying on our unhelpful, critical thoughts. It would be great if we could also be extended all of those things by our colleagues, you know, as people of colour in the workplace or as people with multicultural or migrant identities. It would be great to have that same kind openness and curiosity and compassion extended to us that we're expected to show to our clients. Because at the end of the day….it’s that assumption, you know, that your practice is not as good as mine because you came from somewhere else. “Oh, you speak Enligh so well!” I’m like, I've always spoken English or done my entire education, 15, 16 years of it in English. What does it say? How do you not know that other people in the world live their life like this? How are you so close minded? How small your world is that you feel that everyone has the same experiences as you and how privileged are you that you don't even have to reflect on that. I’m required to reflect on it every day at work.
Aileen:
Exactly. It's like we have to, and I'm guessing that I see it as: either do it the way that I do it, or you're incompetent. There's those two options.
Smruthy:
Black and white thinking (laughs).
Aileen:
Yes. Our competency is always in question. I’m wondering how we can call them in and promote their allyship instead of….I don't know how to say this, but I feel so angry all the time. And it's really hard, you know, because it hurts, and it's tiring. So how do we make a call out to allyship?
Smruthy:
I think that's definitely been happening. There is an attitude shift that has been happening for a long time, it’s just that it’s extremely slow. I'm so glad you're asking me this question because we usually don't get time to talk about this. Look at the teaching from established leaders in the field of intersectionality. A lot of them live and work overseas, they’re not in Australia necessarily, but allyship is really hard to welcome when there is a position of privilege associated with the positions that these people occupy. So if they have, you know, class privilege, if they have the privilege of being born and raised here and speaking with that Australian accent, if they have the privilege of being white or being cisgender, being male. If they have a lot of these privileges, what’s in it for them to extend their allyship to you? Why should they step out of their comfort zone and extend allyship? What I would look at instead is who willing to grow, who is willing to sit in the discomfort of questioning their privilege? Because not everyone is going to do that, and I cannot be really bothered thinking about the fact that I want everyone to be called in because that’s not really in my control. It really is a choice the other person has to make. What is within my control is to educate and to create deep friendships with people who want better, who need better, among my own colleagues who are also people of color or who are also marginalised in some way, I can do that. That is it my control. And so I shifted my focus to that because as much as I want it to happen, maybe the change has to come from the inside. I can't expect others to change for me.
Aileen:
Yep. And I'm guessing that's where The Other Chair comes about from this - what's within your control.
Smruthy:
Yeah, that's exactly how it came about. And I was working at one of the practices I was working at before I noticed I was the only person of colour at the practice there. And I noticed… to see individual people working, right, we don't get to see how individual practitioners work with their individual clients, but during group supervision, I noticed that there were all these assumptions being made about clients from a different culture about how just because they're from a certain ethnicity, they have trauma automatically, or that just because they're a migrant, they put a certain stereotype.
I'm just sitting there reflecting on the fact that, well, why did you make that assumption? This is a formulation. Formulation is not supposed to be assumptions. You know, if you're doing your clinical psychology work properly, you're not supposed to fill your formulation with assumption, and the assumptions were loaded with bias. These were negative stereotypes being projected onto people who are not even my clients. And I just thought, no, this is, this is not right. And when I tried to have those conversations with my then colleagues, they just kept looking at me as if I had three heads, like they could not understand why I was talking about this or where did I get all these ideas from? And so I backed off a little bit and when I left that workplace, I thought I need to talk about the stuff that I face as a practitioner in workplaces and about how I do culturally responsive work in my practice. I need to do aboth those things, I can't separate the two. And who do I talk to about this?
You know, I was very angry at that time. I completely empathized with the angrer you feel. And I actually joked to one of my friends who was one of the first people who came to The Other Chair. I told them let's start the angry PoC therapist venting group, and we both laughed about it. So that was the original name of The Other Chair. You know, I called it the angry BIPOC venting group or something like that. That was intention because I felt so alone in at work. I felt like I the had to call these friends up who are all people of colour, who had experiences of migration or moving to Australia at a young age, whatever it was, who had experienced systemic harm and racism and colourism and these kind of things. I called multiple people and I realised every time I had like a day at work that I wanted to debrief about, these were the people I was reaching out to. And a few of them knew each other, a few of them didn't, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna make all my friends, friends with each other. So I sent out the email invite, and I said, everyone, you have to show up for this. We are gonna meet all my friends. So I was, I was the connecting factor, but nine people showed up, nine of my friends showed up.
Aileen:
Wow.
Smruthy:
And that's where the conversation started. And yeah, we put this out there. I put it on a page on my website on Unhyphen, because I wanted other practitioners like me who are stuck in different parts of Australia and New Zealand, to come in and have these conversations. They were also feeling lonely. And I had a couple of friends from India join in as well because I realized I had beautiful privilege of having practiced in a psychologist in India and practiced in Australia. A lot of Australian psychologists don't have that. They don't know how practice works in other countries, and I thought they can bring that real intersectional perspective, a global perspective and talk to us about what this contemporary practice looks like. Because the world is much bigger than the psychology our clinics show. And our clients are not limited in their experience. They come from so many places.
Aileen:
What I really admire about the work that you do, and I think of your journey, is that you are so much in touch with yourself that you are really good at identifying the inequalities around you. Whereas like my journey has been about recognizing my internalised racism. And it's like, oh, actually I personalise a lot of what's happening around me, and you are like, no, this is not on me. This is the experience where I am. I can identify that and this is what I can control. So thank you for that because it's true. The Other Chair has been a place where I'm like, oh, other people feel like me and there's nothing wrong with me. Actually, there's other reasons other than - I'm not incompetent. It's not because I didn't study in Australia, there's other things happening and I do hold knowledge that I bring something to the table and it's shifting that into - oh, I need to do this to have a chair on the table. Then, oh, I don’t know if I want to be on this table at all.
Smruthy:
I'm so glad you have that experience, I have to say I credit this incidentally to my training in India. I was trained as a narrative therapist. I was trained in so many different modalities of work. There was a lot of openness to experiencing different modalities of therapy, and that may just be because I got really lucky with the university I went to or the teachers that I got, but there was always a kind of layer of intersectionality to how I was taught, because India has so many various different groups of people and we deal with so many different levels of systemic harm. Outside of racial harm, all the other systemic harm exists there, and we also actually have racial inequity in India because it's this huge country and there are different ethnicities of people there. So I was always trying to work with clients considering these intersectional factors. And then when I came here and saw, it was all just covered up, none of the layers were being peeled back, there was no understanding of how these different factors affect clients, it was all hyper individualistic. And then, you know, I saw colleagues being frustrated that their clients weren't achieving their goals, therapeutic goals or not moving forward because the problem was not within them. The problem was not in that individual client and my colleagues couldn't see that. Being a psychologist, being a therapist, being a clinician, I use all these different words because then I'm all about unhyphenating the identity, and I have all of these labels and they're all fitting for me. And I just felt like, I have to talk about this because this is how I am at work. You want me to bring my whole self to work, this is my whole self. And the work is gonna impact. I am not, you know, wearing PPE at work so that the work completely just moves away from me when I take it off and go back home at the end of the day. That's not how it works.
Aileen:
And I think it doesn't work for anyone, right? But I also, when we're talking about what's in it for our allies, is this recognition that you also come as your whole self to work. You don't need to separate yourself. Maybe you leave less things outside the door because, well, it could be that the interventions are more aligned with your culture and it was made for you. But, you're still, there's still part of you that you need to live outside. And this is a call out to come to work and to your professional practice with your whole self, for the benefit of the client that I have in front of me. Especially, one of the things that I, well that I'm working on, it's on getting the language to explain my experience in practice. I've always been called to advocate for my clients because I believe like, this is not the problem of my client. This is the system where they are. And especially in working with kids in a school setting, it's always been about how can I advocate for this child? So I ended up, I always wonder, oh, should this be done by a social worker? Like, where's the line? Maybe I'm stepping out, I’m having AHPRA at the back of my head. And I'm guessing that now when I am finding the language, it's like, no, I cannot separate what I'm doing from being an advocate. I cannot separate….for this individual, community and community harmony is important. I cannot separate them from that and focus on self-care and individual goals. When, for this person, it's so important community and it's part of their wellbeing. I can't do that. So finding that value, that language. It's been so liberating having these conversations where we can actually build this together.
Do you think there's some patterns coming up in the Other Chair for, for professionals that are people of colour?
Smruthy:
Yes, there are. And these are conversations – you know Bimba, who works at Unhyphen with me, and Bimba has been involved since that first session and she's done everything possible to hold up the other half of The Other Chair for me. And I have these conversations often with Biba, so she's my venting sounding board because I've been running The Other Chair for three and a half years now. Exactly three and a half years in April. And, I did notice that…I'm just gonna come out and say it. Just because you’re a person of colour doesn’t mean automatically that they’re culturally aware. Or that you know how to do culturally responsive practice. And I find it very challenging, I think there is that deep sense of, you know, following the truth and wanting justice. And that comes out in my personal feelings as well, because I hate it when people use the platform of being a person of colour or a multicultural or migrant person or having a refugee experience. And then claim that they know what's best for the sector because of their lived experience only. And it's not to disrespect lived experience, but to say lived experience is one part. If we want our allies to be in this with us, we are not expecting them to automatically have lived experience of racial harm. Not everybody is gonna get that. That's not what this is about. This is about doing the work. This is about chasing that knowledge. This is about self reflection. This is about pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, outside of your privilege, and really doing that deep reflection and following that up with action. There are so many components to being culturally responsive. I'm an idealist and I want everyone to do all those components, so I have to, you know, tone my thinking down and I have to really slow it down and be patient and know that everyone is on their journey and they'll get there, but we have to meet them where they're at, right? That's what we tell each other about our clients.
And I've definitely noticed that for some migrant therapists who have come into The Other Chair, they would have only lasted one session, they won't come back after, and I assume that's because we're so fiercely intersectional and openly talk about systemic harm. That they might not be there yet. This might be a bit too much for them. This might be a bit too forward for them. So they have to do the work to get there. And you know what? I have those people who have done the work and then come back to The Other Chair six months later, and then now are still a part of it. So I know that they're on their journey and it works for them. And that's fantastic. There are also the people, you know, like you've been so honest Aileen, about coming into this process and then finding that language and finding the solidarity with other people. Those are the people who keep showing up and to be as inclusive as we can, we've always kept it free, we've always kept it open to membership. We've always kept it that you don't have to come to every session. You don't have to show up if you cannot. You only need to show up when you can, and it's totally okay to come into The Other Chair, meet your needs, and then, you know, not talk to us for the next three months or whatever. It's totally fine. We are open to that because we recognize that everyone's on different parts of this journey.
You'll also find that for some therapists who have either grown up in Australia as people of colour and faced a lot of systemic harm that they might not have named as systemic harm. Or for the therapist who have come as migrants and then for the sake of their survival in this sector, they have had to listen to that internalised racism, they have had to power themselves up and present themselves as this self who can fit in, and, you know, who will take all these racially charged casual racism jokes and oh, it's just a joke. You know, we have this persona that you can present. Those people really struggle to be in a space like The Other Chair. And I'm not calling that out, I'm just saying I think it's okay to acknowledge they have to survive within this sector. They're chosen a different form of survival. That's who they're great. Good for them.
Aileen:
Yeah, and I think what I found very important in what you're saying is that cultural responsiveness is a journey. You don't get a certificate and say like, oh, from now on, you're a cultural responsive practitioner. (both laugh). And we're all in this journey and in different points of it and I think that's the beauty of it, as long as we keep moving. And what I'm hearing from you is that the dangerous position is to feel like we got it. Or to stay in the same place, not to look for that, not keep seeking for that knowledge. Not to keep reflecting, not to keep trying to move in this journey. It's just this assumption that we are or that it doesn't exist. It's just like the static position. Is that what I'm getting?
Smruthy:
Yes. Very much so. It's kind of like that… cultural humility is the term that people use often, aligned with cultural responsivity, but what that means is having this humility to say, I cannot be someone who knows everything. I cannot know the experience of the billions of people on the earth. I cannot. I can empathise with that and I can learn to do better. And I was actually thinking about something you put in the in the questions Aileen, about the last thing that changed my practice and this is that humility part of knowing there is always that Johari window of the unknown. You know, there are things that you don't know about what you don't know, and that's okay, and it's just about nudging that window a bit and it's okay to tell your clients as well, I don’t know, I’m learning about this. You teach me. What was your experience and how do you see it as a person rather than I tell you what that experience would be like.
Aileen:
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. Because it's so important to do this acknowledgement of, it's a process of growing and as long we allow ourself the discomfort. And we can push through the discomfort of like, oh, I might be making a mistake right now. You know, when we look back in 10 years, I might think, oh, that wasn't my best. That discomfort, it's the one that we go through to keep learning, right? And getting out of our comfort zone.
You've told me a lot about your professional. Journey. But what do you think is one of the pieces of your identity or you as a person growing up that has really shaped your professional practice?
Smruthy:
I think a big part of my journey in Australia has been about me being a migrant, and I mention this anywhere that I go and that I speak, Because it's important for people to understand that just because you don't have the exact same experience as them growing up here doesn't mean that your experience is lacking.
And people don't always get that. I had this very strange interaction with another colleague, you know? It really pains me to say this, that psychologist engage with this way with each other. But at a previous workplace, during a professional development session we were doing values, and we had to rank our top three values, and we had to share them in the group. And I ranked, I think, justice and independence and something else is my favourite three values and that's what I was feeling that day. And we were debriefing about that in the group. And the other psychologist sitting next to me, she said, oh, wow, you got really independent when you moved to Australia.
Aileen:
Oh! (laughs incredulously)
Smruthy:
I know. Why would you say that to anyone?
I could feel my whole body tense and my face got really hot, I probably turned red, and I could feel the fear pricking the backs of my eyes. And I took a deep breath and I told myself, this is a teachable moment. You know what? I'm not going to let this go. This is a teachable moment. This is a group of my peers, I am safe right now, I am going to step in and actually say what I think. And I told her, I did not get empowered since I moved here, I had 29 years worth of experience before I came to Australia where I had the chance to reflect on my values, this was just a reflection of my existing values, Australia did not help me understand what my values were. And the other person, and I was gentle about how I said it, it was her turn to go red and I could see the tears swelling up in her. And she had the grace to step in and say, oh, that’s not what I meant to say, oh okay that makes total sense. What you said makes sense. And we both took a deep breath and we left at that. But I really hope that psychologist walked away from that PD session knowing to never assume that people only have values when they move to Australia, and not think that they did not have values just because they did not use the exact English terms of justice, honesty, and independence. Those terms exist globally.
Aileen:
And it’s hard, and I think that's part of the cultural load that I feel that I need to educate everyone, all the time. But I also, I joke with my friends and say like, I don't trust black people who are not mad.
Smruthy:
Yeah – like how can you not be angry? And that’s been my learning journey with The Other Chair of recognising that not everyone is reflecting the same way I am, or some people are reflecting, but also that some people just have to survive. And in order to survive, it's easy to just absorb the shame, absorb the internalised racism, and you know, white supremacy and homophobia and the lack of diversity. Refuse to acknowledge it and you see it. So yeah, we also engage in those behaviors in order to survive.
Aileen:
Of course. And I invited someone who, to me, like it's a, it's a woman of colour, and I invited her to a conference and she said like, oh, I'm not a woman of colour. Her heritage, she's South American. And she’s like, no, but I'm not a woman of colour. I'm like, it's okay, don't worry. It was like, that's where you're at. For me, it's worked, like it’s one of my social identities that I’m a woman of colour, whereas privately it could be like I'm a single mom or whatever. But at work, I can feel the loneliness of being the only woman of colour from a migrant background with English as a second language.
Smruthy:
Yeah. And that's exactly the load we're carrying, the invisible burden that we’re constantly having to carry and we don't have the privilege of letting go of that. Even clients sometimes make comments, right? They would say something and then they say, oh, do you understand this word? Things like that. They would just say things like that because they don't have a duty on this journey to be on this journey with us. And sometimes parts of our culture are just not very comfortable to talk about. You know, there's sexism or there's colourism as part of my culture, certainly, and that's really difficult when clients also assume that we also buy into those stereotypes, you know of our own cultures, and we have to actively clarify that, you know, like that’s a part of my culture that I choose not to engage in that.
Aileen:
Or part of your religions. Like, me as a Catholic, who make assumptions of what I think about homosexuality. And I'm like, that's part of my religion, but I worked it out differently and that's okay with me. Or being South American and part of, I feel like South Americans, especially women, have been exoticized, like it's an exotic thing. And I'm like, I’m very common in my country. Don't. Um, which is, it's very shameful to talk about. So those are the challenges that I feel getting together and talking about and having difficult conversations, especially when we're all in a different point of our journey. So thank you so much for your honesty today, Smruthy.
I can't leave without asking you what brings you joy? We've talked about the challenges. How do you fill your cup?
Smruthy:
The reason I said this is a double-edged sword is deeply connected to that, bringing your whole self to it, because a lot things that bring me joy are also work related. So I really have already burnt out a couple of times because I love the work and I love doing it. I've been to a policy course a couple of weeks ago, and that was like a two day policy course and you know, a bunch of random people. But that first day, Aileen, I didn't need coffee or anything. I was just buzzing with energy and, you know, waiting to absorb all this knowledge because I really wanted to learn.
So it's finding that balance between how many work things do I want to take on that fill my cup, and how many non-work things do I want to take on? And there are quite a few things that I committed to after burning out a few times. So I, you know, take time out to do what I really love and make sure I have time for hobbies.
And now as a parent, I hate. for other people, I hate this when that becomes their entire identity, because I think it should be one more layer to your identity. I don't see myself as a mum. I see myself as an equal parenting partner in that parenting partnership for my child. But I also take time to do things for myself as well as for my child.
So one of the things I committed to doing was going back to reading as much as I could during COVID, and I also realised it’s so easy for white male authors to get books published. So since COVID, since 2020, I would say more than 95% of what I have read is works by women of colour. That for me really fulfilling to be able to uphold that intersectionality in my personal life as well. So if you need some recommendations, I have some.
Aileen:
I love it, I need some recommendations. Lovely, thank you so much, really. Oh my goodness, this been great. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Anita (outro):
Thanks for listening to Psychology for Everyone Everywhere, All At Once: Conversations about diversity in psychology. This is a wholly independent passion project created by myself, Anita Gupta and Aileen Guatache, and produced by me with original music by Casey Nicholson. Aileen and I live, work and play on Bunurong and Wurundjeri country here in Naarm. Continue the conversation by rating or reviewing our podcast if you like, and we look forward to chatting with you next time.