Transcripts
The transcript for episode 4 with Prof Pat Dudgeon is below. For other episodes, please click on title. Transcripts for episodes 1-3 are a work in progress!
Episode 4. Professor Pat Dudgeon on her experience as a pioneer in Indigenous mental health and wellbeing
Anita:
Professor Pat Dudgeon is a Bardi woman from the Kimberley region of Western Australia. She was the first Aboriginal person to qualify as a Psychologist in Australia in 1985, and since then has had a long and distinguished career as a leader in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mental health and wellbeing, Indigenous suicide prevention, decolonising psychology education and practice. Pat is the Director of the University of Western Australia’s Centre of Best Practice in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention and was the head of the Centre for Aboriginal Studies at Curtin University for 17 years. She was a founding Chair of the AUstralian Indigenous Psychologists Association and a founding board member of Gayaa Dhuwi Proud Spirit Australia. Her list of achievements and publications is far too long for me to list but hopefully this gives you a taste of Pat’s role as a pioneer in Indigenous psychology and mental health in Australia. Pat was generous enough to speak with me about how our profession has changed over time, her experiences of creating change, and how we can do better in Indigenous mental health. She spoke to me from Whadjuk Noongar country in Perth, while I was on Wurunjeri woi-worrung country in Melbourne.
One of the things I wonder about is what your experience was like in the 80s, wasn't it, as an Aboriginal person studying psychology.
Pat:
Yeah, it was very challenging. I think, I didn't find out till afterwards that I was actually the first Aboriginal person to finish psychology. And I probably hung in there mainly because I was 23, which to me at the time seemed very old. So I came in as a mature age student. Now I think, oh, that's very young. But at that time, I was very concerned because I'd started lots of things and I'd never completed them. So I was determined to finish it, no matter what, because I didn't want to, you know, stop and incomplete activities in my life.
So I was determined to complete it. It was really hard, just going to university was, um, very challenging. Um, I was lucky though, there was an Aboriginal centre at WAIT, I studied WAIT later that became Curtin and I found that and I just clung to that so I don't know if I would have survived otherwise.
So having a good peer group of other like minded people, whether you're indigenous or, you know a person of, um, from a different culture is really important. Um, it was a very white. Um, uh, still, I think in, no, it's changed. I'm gonna say that psychology has changed. Um, but it was very white, very mainstream.
They never challenged their own hegemony, um, or had a place for, um, people who weren't white middle class. You know, um, so it was racist as well, you know, occasionally get comments from, um, lecturers or other students. Um, so there was, I, I can't imagine they'd get away with making those comments now. So it was very hard.
Towards the end of my program, I started making friends with my non Indigenous, um, colleagues. And, um, that was fun. fabulous. So I wish I had, um, uh, ventured out earlier, if you like. So that's my advice to others, you know, despite sometimes the challenges still continue to reach out because, you know, those people I've known all my life and still remain friends with.
So that's an important part of your university experience. But the content was very, um, We did have social psychology, which challenged, um, a different sort of thinking. Uh, it was more challenging at psychology itself rather than anything else. I did anthropology as my minor though, and that, I loved anthropology.
I got the best. grades in anthrop because, it really talked about culture and introduced different ways of seeing the world of, of valuing what was valued, of knowing the world, et cetera, et cetera. So it was anthropology, I think, that had a big influence on me. But it was, it's quite different now.
I can remember the early debates, so we were challenging psychology from the beginning, and I was lucky to have a like minded group around me of Indigenous and non Indigenous people, but, there was, I could not see a space for an Indigenous psychology, and when we did bring it up, you know, a lot of the white male scholars and figures in the area would, quickly cut us down and say, oh, well, if you're going to have an Indigenous psychology, why don't you have an Italian psychology or a Vietnamese psychology? And we'd say, yes, why not? Yeah. So yeah, that it was, um, it was very narrow minded is all I can say. Very narrow minded.
Anita:
I'm wondering about this sense that from your undergrad days you were really fighting to include Aboriginal knowledge and Aboriginal ways of doing things and one of the things I'm wondering because you've made such an impact on psychology in Australia is what kind of advice you give to people around creating change because it can feel sometimes like those systems are so rigid.
Pat:
First of all, find people who are, um, like minded spirits. So find the, the other radicals, the other, um, thinkers, critical thinkers. And, um, and, and develop friendships and, and relationships with them. Because, you know, we, we, you're not alone.
If you think like that, you are definitely not alone. I've been privileged, I guess. to witness a movement that's happened from, um, the early days where, you know, um, Aboriginality or culture was seen as, oh, abnormal or, you know, oh, we've got to tip our hat at that topic. And then we move on to the real science.
But to where now it's quite the, the change has been considerable. I support a project called the, um, Australian indigenous psychology education project, and that's led by an Indigenous clinical psychologist, and we've had over 80 percent of schools of psychology sign up and be a part of that project.
Anita:
That's amazing.
Pat:
Oh, it's fabulous. They've got a website of great readings. They've got, you know, they have, monthly meetings where they discuss how to put Indigenous studies into the psych curriculum, how to, um, increase the number of indigenous students in psychology. And there's been lots of resources coming out and, you know, we didn't judge, that was our, our rule is that once we established the community of practice, that sometimes course coordinators, you know, they're fighting against their systems. And so we're not about to judge them if they can't put, um, you know, a huge amount of cultural, difference into their program, but we would support them.
So that's really been a big, great success, and quite influential. Our steering committee that, oversees the project and advises it are made up of the regulators like APRA, PsyBA or the accreditation body. So the moments come. We actually ran that project in 2013. And the response was very limited, and then it came to its end, and we decided to revive it a couple of years ago.
And I envisaged that there'd be a select group of us who would meet at conferences, write papers to challenge the power, etc, etc. But the response was amazing. You know, everyone was so keen. And so, um, I had to have a big ponder about that. And I thought, what's happened in our discipline? It's changed so phenomenally.
And, what it is, I think, is that society's changed and psychologists are a part of society. So I think what we've seen happening is a willingness to critically think and to look at, um, social justice in our society. So that's been an important change, I think that's filtered through the whole discipline.
So where it sits now, I'm very pleased and proud. We're not alone. There's a movement happening globally. So, in, the American Psychological Association, they've got an Indigenous psychology task force. So across the globe, a movement’s happening. And it's not just ensuring that Indigenous people have a place at the table. It's about what are our models that can benefit society as well. Not just our own people, although that's our first priority, obviously. But what strengths and different models we bring can benefit all of us. So I think that's an important change that's happened.
But for people who are struggling and feel like they're the odd person out and it doesn't fit, my advice is to grit your teeth and go through it to get that qualification, because you do need that and that gives you power then when you do challenge and speak and ensure that, you know, you think, you write papers, you have conversations, you go to the right conferences where, there are similar minded people.
Anita:
So you've talked a lot about connections with other people, like minded people, and there's also a timing piece there, and I guess that speaks to the importance of persistence and longevity, you know, like maybe you had the project, maybe the timing isn't quite right, doesn't necessarily mean that the project's the wrong project, but maybe it's not quite the right moment, and you need to be able to kind of come back to it at a time when there's an opening.
Pat:
Yes, absolutely. And that the IPAT project is a stunning example of that. When we first undertook it, yeah, it still was successful. It started, I think it influenced the accreditation competencies. And so it was very important, but it was limited. Maybe we didn't have the time to give it, but really, I don't think the wall was ready for it. Now it's a different, there's a different feel out there. It's quite different.
Anita:
When you're talking about, joining together with people, one of the things that I'm wondering about is, you know, it's important for people to kind of stick together and have solidarity, um, but also not dilute concepts. And I'm wondering a little bit about your thoughts about this concept of decolonizing psychology, which is a term that I'm just starting to get my head around, and what your thoughts are around what that term means in terms of whether decolonizing psychology is essentially for you about indigenizing psychology and bringing Indigenous culture into the front and center, or to what extent it's sort of about what all cultures and kind of saying, well, let's not just prioritize, um, you know, European white ways of thinking. Let's think about all different ways of thinking. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Pat:
Look, absolutely. First of all, I belong to quite a good group, an extensive group of Australian Indigenous psychologists. And I think our, my job, you know, I see my role as encouraging different forms of thinking.
So, you know, some of the models that they propose or written about and developed, you know, mightn’t be my cup of tea and that's okay. But I will still encourage and support them to write their papers, to get out and share, um, their knowledge on and their models on how they see the world. So even within the group, there is diversity, and I think the saddest thing that you could do would be to try and have everyone go your way and no other way.
So we need to encourage free thinking and the development of different models and different angles on knowledges. So that's the first thing. That's very important. The second issue is about decolonizing psychology has never only been about Indigenous Australian psychology. It's about everything. So every group of non white middle class people. So, I think in decolonizing psychology, it is for everyone, and particularly those who've been excluded. And that includes, you know, mainstream society itself, don't know how psychology fits them very well. And I'd say not entirely or precisely so.
So it is about a movement or an attitude that, I don't know. That are an approach - an attitude is too flimsy, let's call it an approach - that involves all of us. But mainly obviously when I do my work, I'm focused on Indigenous Australian knowledges. But, um, some of my peers and, and good friends are from New Zealand, they're from Canada. Um, they're from the US of A. And we've been connecting up much more now. So that I think that it's about Indigenous people across the world and people of colour who have been excluded, but also probably some elements of mainstream as well. So that decolonising psychology to me is all of us challenging those old mainstream ways of working.
And, also developing local knowledges and local valuing and recognizing local knowledges, but also probably naming up the past and how it's excluded and oppressed us, and then developing alternatives. So I'm ensuring that we work in ways that nurture Indigenous knowledges and other knowledges.
Have I answered that question in a roundabout way?
Anita:
Yes, you really have. No, not, I don't think that was roundabout at all. I think it sounds like to you, it's an inclusive concept. It's about, you know, including everyone in having a psychology that includes everyone.
One of the things that I was thinking about was about this idea of self-determination. I think sometimes when I've been talking to people about, uh, mental health care and thinking about service design, I've noticed, and I think also around the conversation around the voice, uh, which is about 18 months ago now, I found there wasn't a really good understanding of self-determination and why that was so important, and so central. I wonder if you might be able to talk a little bit about that.
Pat:
Look, yeah. To me, self-determination happen can happen at a number of different levels. I think, you know, there's personal self-determination where one feels empowered and supported in making decisions about your own life and what you do in it. But there's all different levels and particularly, um, we're in a colonial situation.
So there's been a period of time of colonization, of oppressive history and legislation against. To Aboriginal people. So in a sense it's undoing that, trying to reverse that. So I don't think self-determination for indigenous people or any minority group can be discussed without acknowledging and recognizing oppression or, or a history of oppression that's led to where we are now.
And so self-determination is, is very much at a policy level as well. And it's about policies and frameworks that, society makes that can include and empower Indigenous people. And just recently, before Christmas, they launched the national Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention strategy.
So for us in working in the mental health area, that's important. And I think last week they launched the Gaya Dhuwi Proud Spirit implementation plan, which is about taking the best of both worlds in mental, mental health and working towards empowering Aboriginal Torres Strait is people, um, self-determination is about having Aboriginal people determine what, their vision, their, their aspirations, and what needs to happen to change things.
To empower Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people overall. And to have representation too. To have presence. So you'll see with a lot of the Indigenous strategies and frameworks. It is about often the, usually there'll be a statement about recognizing cultural difference.
And it's about having Indigenous governance, so Indigenous people in charge of their own affairs from all different levels. And even though we're Indigenous, we might be an Indigenous, body. There's a certain area we can be, you know, active in. But when it comes to local decision making, for instance, local Aboriginal people need to in charge of that.
So even for us, nationally we might have representation and, and do the best we can for our people, but we, we also, advocate local, um, decision making and that's self-determination. So it's, it's at a number of different levels, including a personal level as well. And can be tied up in recognizing a history of colonization and then to ensure that there's mechanisms put in place. So Aboriginal people's cultural differences, but the rights to have a say over their own affairs is part of the structure
Anita:
When you're talking about colonization, I guess. Partly this whole focus on self-determination. It's about how so much control has been taken away from people for such a long time.
Pat:
The change is not onerous. I know that, you know, I've, I work obviously in research too, and I know that there's some big research grants or projects that I know about that very much. The elders are at the center of it and, you know, when I was a young student, the, you know, you were lucky to be able to include Aboriginal people if you are researching about Aboriginal issues, but to have elders very much of a part of it.
Part of your research and advising you was not something that was done previously. Now that's, it's not uncommon. And I think that people take that responsibility. You know, elders who probably never worked in a university. Now they take that responsibility, they understand what it's all about.
And they've been an important, valuable part of those projects that do have elders, you know, overseeing it. know that I watched that change happen and they're, I know one of the projects I was involved in. It was, you know, very much about elders being in charge and they stepped up to the plate and took responsibility beautifully, you know, they worked together.
There was a great fairness and, and sense of responsibility. The project manager made sure that they were recompensed and acknowledged for their expertise. Um. But I think it's the way you treat people. It's human nature. If you treat them, like, if you treat them as if they are fully functioning, responsible human beings, they will react accordingly.
But if you treat people like they're idiots and, and you know they're gonna be, there's gonna be difficulty and problems, which doesn't say there's no magical answers, neither, course there's problems with whatever you do. But if the vision is, if you've got a deep belief in people, and, the vision that you are working towards, it will happen.
Anita:
I don't work in research, so I wasn't aware of such a big change. That sounds so exciting and that sounds so thoughtfully done. It must be quite, uh, it must feel quite healing at times for people to have the process done, really in a way that's thoughtful and culturally appropriate.
Pat:
Yes. And that's becoming common, well in the projects that I'm involved in. But I know that Aboriginal organizations, they have a strong, a couple that I know of have very strong elders groups who meet, who discuss, who are part of the decision making of that service, and very much involved in it. So they're not just, you know, you don't just ship 'em in for an advisory committee meeting and, you know, pick their brains and then send them off.
They're very much part of the operations of that particular organization Wungening it's called.
Anita:
We were gonna talk a bit about the Working Together book that you've been really essentially involved in. I think the first edition was that in 2009 that came out?
Pat:
2010 was the first edition of the Working Together book. We actually had done a book prior to that that we'd published at UWA and it was called Working with Indigenous Australians.
And it was a brilliant book, but I think we didn't promote it very well and. And it was quite costly for the time because we were trying to recover the monies for it. But we didn't promote it as much as we could. Later on, the Working Together book came about and we basically, we tried different things, but we end up modeling it on the Working with Indigenous Australians.
So it actually had its history back there. But the, a bit, the same sort of format and whatnot, but that was very good. The format, you know, our insisting of having indigenous authorship, and leadership throughout the whole project was very important.
So it was about cultural competence or responsiveness. But, you know, even that history, we had two histories in the book. I think one was mental health area, and then one was psychology because of my background, but even able to present that I think are important. People don't, understand the history of what's happened in Australia, let alone what's happened in particular, you know, topic areas like mental health.
So I think presenting histories was very important. Now it's, it'd be strange if people didn't know the history, but back in 2010, 2014, they did not know those histories.
Anita:
And it's strange how controversial it might have been too.
Pat:
It was. I know that we had conversations with the first edition. The government was worried about us saying colonization and invasion and um, and they did a lot of, I don't know, cogitation over it. And they said, well, this is the author's opinion, so, um, we have to give way to that. But you know, nowadays they wouldn't have even had given it a second thought, but they were worried to use those term. But also that we wanted, um, at that time, um, and always we wanted, um, indigenous authors and I've, I've been going through my old, my little study there. Um, trying to throw out books, which was, is very difficult. Um, but some of the old texts that I've been looking at, you know, it's all about Aboriginal people, but not one aboriginal writer, not one.
And that was how it was until, you know, um, the eighties or so. Um, so Aboriginal people weren't present to tell their own realities. And I think what I'm seeing now is very much a growing of indigenous knowledges led by indigenous people.
So, um, it's been a big change.
Anita:
Yeah, it's very exciting and it's easy to take it for granted and forget that it was so revolutionary at the time
Pat:
We were particularly proud that, of the high number of indigenous authors in the book, um, you know, the first edition pretty well got snapped up within a couple of months. Yeah. So there were 50,000 copies published and within two to five months they, um, were all taken.
Anita:
Wow.
Pat:
Now I think we've got, with the second edition, another 50,000 were printed and we did some changes, you know, updated what was there. And plus we, that was the first time we put a chapter on social emotional being up. And now that's become a, a very, you know, it's very common model that's used. You know, we've got policies about it. So we have been talking amongst ourselves, what, you know, do we do a third edition? My feeling is, probably not. I think that what has happened now is that the area has been opened up, which is fabulous, and now people are starting to research and there's collaborative teams on different topical areas. So I think that the time for a big general text may not be necessary now. However, we are thinking of maybe looking at establishing a website with the Working Together text, but taking different sections and putting all the updated literature and our thoughts on it, all the different chapters. So we'll probably have to get a research assistant to do that. But that's, but we might go for an online type of offering.
Anita:
Well, how amazing that the areas developed that much, that it has that thing that was so perfect then, which is one manual just isn't enough to capture what's going on now.
Pat:
Yeah. It only serves as a good overview, but we're seeing lots of new information coming up now. It's very good.
Anita:
And I'll mention that the second edition of Working Together is Free Online. I'll put link in the show notes as well.
I was reading, about some of the key ideas in indigenous psychology, and some of it's about thinking about, upstream determinants of mental health, isn’t that right about thinking about culture and thinking about social, you know, in the relational worlds of people to prevent or reduce mental health difficulties, which would indicate a focus away from traditional mental health services. I'm also wondering for people who maybe are in more traditional services, and it sounds like an important thing is to understand history and in the information like the Working Together book, you do go through, the impact of history and colonization. What do you think is something else that you might, you would want to say to people?
Pat:
Well, first of all, um, go out there and learn the history. There's some good websites you can access, so it's not like there's no information. Certainly our websites have got good information in it. Find out about, learn the history of Indigenous people in general. A lot of people wouldn't have a clue. They're absolutely clueless. So learn about that. Learn a little bit. Start thinking about what cultural difference there is and how that's gonna manifest in if you're working with Aboriginal people, which you yourself would've done Anita, you know? And I do it, you know, if I go to a different culture and, um, I try and learn as much as I can about them. So you're not going in totally blank slate, andyour perception, you know, is then more inclusive. So I'd be learning a lot more immediately. Once you go, it depends on if you're dealing with a client or whether you are starting at an organization that's seeing Aboriginal clients. I'd actually shop around, find out which cultural responsiveness programs are available and ensure that I enrol in them. That's become a great new area for Aboriginal people to occupy. And even a basic one, like we recently sent some of our new admin staff to, I think it was a three hour session. They loved it. It was fabulous. But I said it's just the start. They need to do more. I, if you, depending on, you know, what position you are occupied, or, or where you are, try and get an Aboriginal mentor. That's another thing we've been speaking about, in our own, even though there's myself, Helen, and a number of Aboriginal staff, um, we were thinking of mentoring on this non-indigenous staff actually asked for indigenous mentors. So we're still throwing those ideas around, but it might be that, you know, someone meets with that particular staff member once a fortnight and they have a cup of coffee for a hour or two together and they can, the staff member then can discuss things. But see if you can get a formal mentor. But if there's an Aboriginal person on staff, you know. Or talk to them and say, you know, can I come and consult with you and ask you? I'd really appreciate it. So reach out to them. Does that answer it sort?
Anita:
Yeah. Great ideas. Some of the things that go through my head when you're saying that is one is how do we look after, um, indigenous staff and organisations so that they're not necessarily feeling burdened with, um, having these demands from so many people. I guess that's one thought I. And another thought, I guess was around this concept of two-way learning, kind of how can we connect with maybe even other organizations? Um, and maybe there's, you know, one organization might have some specialist expertise around mental health and another one maybe around cultural learning and, and for people to be on equal footing. Yeah. So there are two thoughts.
Pat:
I think they're good thoughts I think, yeah, cultural load is an issue for Aboriginal professionals, and a lot is asked of them, and just be open, have those discussions. Just so you know, I understand that you guys are in on, in demand all the time. And you know, even if you're doing the same job, say you're doing a counseling job, um, it's gonna be different for the Aboriginal people because they're a part of the community. So they can't switch off at five o'clock. They have, they have their own special strategies, but, um, maybe you could help with that.
Anita:
Maybe it's just something to just be mindful of, as you say, that people often, I would think really want to have those conversations. But maybe, yeah, also being open with that kind of knowledge that that's a lot for people to carry. I wonder, could I ask you one last question? It might be short. Uh, well, it can be as short or long as you want. I'm wondering, you know, you've been doing this work for such a long time and you've seen all of this injustice and you've made attempts to change it. Sometimes it's been incredibly successful and sometimes it hasn't. I'm wondering what sustains you? What, what keeps you going and what keeps you inspired and fills your cup?
Pat:
I had some very good role models and mentors and they were community people who are very, what is it? I don't want to say radicals because that's, that's sort of, pigeonholes them. I've had people, um, who've always challenged the system and I think you can't, some people can, you know, quietly challenge it and just continuing work, continuing to do their work. I don't always challenge things. So I think that's another message too. You know, we shouldn't make our own people feel deficient if they're, you know, it's beyond them to challenge or there's different ways to challenge too. So, yeah, I think that's important, but, um, early up I had good supporters and role models, and that just seemed, you know, it's, a commitment to self determination and social justice, I suppose, so that's what's motivated me, I think that's my role in the area is to, be the challenger and, shepherd along change that's good for all of us.
Anita:
Well, thank you for being such an inspiration in the discipline.
Pat:
My pleasure.
Anita:
I'm sure you’re a mentor and a role model for many, many people.
Pat:
Thank you, my dear.